Genesis P-Orridge needs no introduction. He has been a world-class innovator since the mid 70s as a founder of the extreme performance art group COUM TRANSMISSIONS and pioneering Industrial music group THROBBING GRISTLE, which practically defined the genre itself. Upon the dissolution of TG, Genesis formed Thee Temple Ov Psychick Youth and musical project PSYCHIC TV. With a revolving cast of co-conspirators, P-Orridge helped to develop many different facets of experimental music and sound, dabbling in everything from religious/tribal music to trance/dance/acid house to his current cyber-psychedelic phase,all the while proving himself to be an artist without boundaries. Hes currently involved in a number of musical/sound projects with Larry Thrasher as well as being heavily involved with The Process, PIGFACE,and DOWNLOAD. All this plus hes authored several books, lectured at universities, had his art exhibited in galleries the world over, you get the picture. I had a chance to talk to this extraordinary human being and living legend on 1/17/96.

T-Todd Zachritz G-Genesis P-Orridge

T-HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THE INFLUENCE YOUVE HAD THROUGH THE YEARS OVER SO MANY ARTISTS AND MUSICIANS? IS IT ALL THAT OBVIOUS TO YOU?

G-Its becoming more obvious I think. I think being a member of Pigface was when it really started to dawn on me. The first time I went & worked with them in San Francisco, everybody was incredibly welcoming but also very respectful, and I was thinking, Why are they all being so nice to me?. Basically, they just said, in different ways, that some of what Id done had been an inspiration at various key points in their time. cEvin Key from Skinny Puppy has a really thorough Throbbing Gristle and more experimental PTV collection, yknow. He knows it better than I do at this stage. Well, Im flattered, Im glad, I mean really, if I had to choose between making the perfect song or throwing out possibilities that were useful to other people and got expanded upon and developed, then I would rather come up with the ideas. Im more interested in ideas and possibilities than the perfect product. So, its a strange thing to ask me about cuz obviously Im flattered and Im glad and I would hope its true but at the same time its embarrassing cuz you could sound very arrogant if you said, Well, yes, of course... I was trying to work out something the other day in my own mind, being the classic insecure artist. I was thinking, Lets suppose that Id never done anything. If Id never done TG and wed never thought of the name Industrial music, so on. What would be different? What wouldnt have happened? And thats probably a better way to look at it. And when I looked at it that way, I thought, god, theres a lot grown from that. The bottom line is, you have to ask yourself, was that inevitable? Was this kind of music inevitable anyway? And were just the right ones in the right time and the right place who were demented enough to try and do it? Ive always believed it was inevitable. That music would go the way its gone because it has to reflect its environment. If youre 1000 years ago and youre in the African environment, you would use tree trunks and animal bones, the human voice and rocks, because that would be both what was available and what was relevant to the environment. Youd probably refer to hunting and animals and so on. It struck me in the 70s that music really wasnt referring to its own immediate environment-popular music.

T-EVEN TODAY A LOT OF IT ISNT.

G-Even today a lot of it is still referring to cotton fields basically, in the sense that its post-blues music. And thats in no way to demean it, its just about the basic roots of the music. So I think that it was really important for someone to be very stubborn and overstate the case for music to reflect its immediate environment and western society and the postindustrial revolution and the coming technology and a completely different set of needs to express both angst and anxiety, disenchantment, and anger to some degree. In other words, just a frustration with the content of the lyrics of music. And I think one of the greatest contributions of all industrial music groupsgroups of that ilkalternative groups, is that they have between them all had the effect of making everything and anything a potential subject for both a lyric or a discussion within the music.

T-VERY TRUE. ITS OPENED SO MANY DOORS AS FAR AS... G-Metaphysics T-YEAH. NOT EVEN MUSIC. EVERYTHING.

G-I think the other thing to bear in mind is that most music has a drug connection with it. Punk was very much speed and alcohol. The late 60s was very much LSD and mushrooms with a bit of speed, depending on whether you re on the East coast or not, like the Velvet Underground is speed. The 80s were so incredibly boring. I think because there was so much cocaine, which is kind of instant gratification and as a result weve got MTV. MTV is basically cocaine, you know (laughing)? And the post-cocaine mentality. Industrial music is much more amorphous. If you think about it, it doesnt have a drug of choice. There are goths and there are psychedelic people, there are vegetarian purist people, its not got a drug of choice. And that s quite unusual. And also most music, up to industrial music, was primarily the slang terms referring just to fucking. And industrial music and all the different lines of inquiry that have grown from thatthey really dont deal primarily with just biological functions and romance and that mentality although they can and do mention those things. So I think its also the most open form of music weve ever had. It can sound symphonic, and be like Philip Glass or Stockhausen. It can be very serious intellectual music, it can be completely confrontational. Its a completely open, unlimited platform. And its also accessible to everybody in the cheapest way. You can make it with 2 cassette recorders and a fax machine or a Polaroid camera or anything, you know, everything aroundthe detritus and equipment of our society that was originally intended to sublimate the imagination and encourage stupidity & lethargy, can be bastardized and reworked and reassembled and collided in ways that were not intended by the manufacturers to create something fantastic and surreal.

T-YEAH. I LIKEN IT MORE CLOSELY TO OTHER ART FORMS LIKE PAINTING THAN TO OTHER TYPES OF MUSIC.

G-I think so.

T-YOU CAN USE YOUR PAINTBRUSH AND BRUSH DIFFERENT COLORS AND JUST CREATE SOMETHING THATS DIFFERENT FROM WHAT ANYONE HAS SEEN OR HEARD BEFORE.

G-Absolutely.

T-I SEE THIS MUSIC AS, NOT SO MUCH SOUNDTRACKS, BUT SOUNDTRACKS TO THE MIND.

G-Absolutely. Thats very astute. Ive often said that I work with music more like a painter or a creative writer. When you take a theme and you rework that themewe sample our own earlier musicwell take the rhythm track and build up a completely different piece.

T-YEAH. I NOTICED ON FRACTURED GARDEN, THERES AN OLD TG PIECE.

G-Exactly. And thats very painterly, cuz we keep taking the canvas and reworking it and refining it, rechecking it, and trying to get the perfect crystallized version of something. And that each attempt or each product is not the thing itself, its the process of research and rechecking and rebuilding worlds and images and sounds and reactions that never existed before and thats what we can do now. The technology around you can build and assemble that which never existed before. In that sense were all gods. (laughs) This is of course a very subjective view! It feels that way. Obviously as youre making music youll know what I mean. You get a blank tapea piece of blank tape or a computer disk or whatever way youre workingat the end something exists on it that never existed before. Thats incredible! The implication of that is just incredible.

T-TO ME THE MOST INCREDIBLE PART OF IT THOUGH IS WHEN YOU PLAY SOMETHING BACK AND YOU HEAR THINGS THAT YOU DID NOT DO.

G-Yeah. So what do you think this means? Do you think the human brain is changing? Do you think that culture is actually changing, that this is indicative of a very important change in culture? It seems possible.

T-I DONT NECESSARILY SEE IT THAT WAY, I SEE IT AS ITS KIND OF BEEN THERE ALL ALONG. IN MY OPINION, I THINK ITS JUST A MATTER OF ACCESSING THAT PORTION. I MEAN I THINK PRIMITIVE PEOPLES GENERALLY HAD THIS SENSE BUILT IN TO THEMA MUCH EASIER-ACCESSED SENSE, THAT IS, THAN WE HAVE HERE IN THIS CENTURY.

G-Were reminding ourselves or relearning or rediscovering.

T-YES. I FEEL THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE NOW, EVEN WITH THIS HUGE TREND IN MODERN PRIMITIVISM, ALL OF THIS STUFF IS COMING BACK FROM SUBCONSCIOUS AREAS

G-I guess maybe I should rephrase what I said. I think in terms of popular culture, by which I mean commercialized culture. And Im sure that even when someone like Elvis was completely manipulated by big business, wiggling and giggling and mouthing other peoples wordsthere would be certain underlying primal responses in people but that he was neither conscious nor concerned with that implication. Whereas now, a lot more people are aware of the cause and effect of what they do, and of the lineage of trance music or ecstatic religious music and repetition in order to alter states of consciousness.

T-YOU KNOW WELL, YOUR ACID HOUSE PHASE, I THINK THAT WHOLE MOVEMENT, THE TECHNO-RAVE MOVEMENTTHAT BROUGHT INTO ATTENTION A LOT OF YOUNG KIDS, THIS KIND OF BASE INSTINCT.

G-A lot of people have rediscovered other, whats loosely called world musicthe music of other cultures which operate primarily on fast repeated rhythms and long periods of dancing, of moving, and high pitched frequencies, and so on, and its the same music basically. Its just produced by blowing down pipes and hitting drums, but the function of the music and the way it operates are exactly the same.

T-OF COURSE, YOUVE HAD A RECENT FLURRY OF ACTIVITY, THE COUNTLESS CDS THROUGH CLEOPATRA, VISIONARY, INVISIBLE, DOSSIER, ETC. AND I WAS WONDERING WHY THE RECENT FLOOD WHEREAS BEFORE YOU SEEMED TO LAY LOW, BUT I ASSUME THATS BECAUSE OF YOUR EXILE, YOUR PROBLEMS WITH THE BRITISH AUTHORITIES?

G-Yeah. Basically I arrived here with 2 children and 2 suitcases, no money whatsoever and (I) had to just rebuild from the beginning. And the way that Psychic TV has always worked as a project is, to wait for the right people to appear. You know, not to advertise in a magazine, alternative band needs a bass guitarist or whatever. And so there was no fast way to reassemble the impetus. And what happened, basically how it began to start to fall together again was that Caroline in England asked me to assemble and remaster a 6 CD box set of film soundtracks.

T-SPLINTER TEST.

G-Yeah. And I asked around in San Francisco, Does anyone know a good, cheap, digital editing/mastering facility? and I was recommended to Larry Thrasher. So I went down there and initially paid him to work with me on reconstituting all these tapes which were literally falling apart...the oxide came off as we rerecorded them. We both did that whole remastering job together and by the end of it, we just became firm friends and realized that our innate aesthetic was very close, that I didnt have to explain or justify anything I was trying to do. He knew what I meant when I wanted to make something more abstract or grating, there was no conflict of interest whatsoever, and it became a joint project. So after that, we stayed in touch and then I got asked to do a rave or something so I just said, Hey, do you want to come along and do it with me? and he said, Sure, so, he came along and played and it turned out that he is an incredibly good tabla playerone of the best on the west coast even. He even plays with a lot of Asian musicians when they come over here to do a showcase concert and so on. So of course I discovered that we had someone who was expert at sampling and playing tables, so then it kinda became part of Psychic TV. It also then transpired he played bass guitar and lead guitar as well. In fact he plays everything. Hes a multi instrumentalist and has been for years. From just asking him to edit something, I just discovered this infinite pool of creative skill. Then we got asked to do a bigger event with Pigface and I said, I dont really know any more musicians. He said, Well, I know a brilliant guitarist called Michael Campagna that I work with, he might do it. So I said yeah, sure, and so basically thru Larry we discovered Michael and Billy Pink, the keyboard player and they came along and played live without rehearsaljust straight on stage and it was great. We played at Sin-A Matic. There they were suddenly, the band fell into my lap, via Larry. Then William Breeze, the viola playerIve known him for at least 10 years I think, but Ive known him as a writer and an archivist and an expert on the occult. So I hadnt really thought about him in terms of music except I knew that he probably listened to music. Then one day I was visiting him and there lying on the table in the living room was an electric viola. So I said, Hey Bill, do you play viola? He goes, Oh yeah. Ive played it since the 60s. I was like, Really? And he said, Yeah. It turned out that he used to jam with Angus MacLise who later on co-founded the Velvet Underground, and was a good friend of Williams and that he knew LaMonte Young and all these people and studied at an academy and studied Indian music as well as modern composition, and is this incredible virtuoso avante-garde classical viola player, who plays thru viola synths and sampler and everything. So it was like years after Id met him, I discovered that he was perfect. The same thing happened-Do you wanna come and jam? And he said, Sure, so he came to the house. All the viola work on the new album he played just to the click track, you know, the guitar parts went on, the vocals went on, he just improvised around the ideas of what we said was gonna happen later. One of the most remarkable things about this Trip Reset album is that none of the musicians met each other while it was recorded. They came up one at a time from Los Angeles or wherever they were living and they played their parts based on a verbal description of the track. And after theyd all done that, Larry and I mixed it and assembled it. I wrote lyrics and sang the vocals last to what theyd already done so what they played inspired the melodies which made the lyrics have to be a particular shape so its been built in a very unusual way.

T-SO THEY NEVER ACTUALLY GOT TOGETHER AS A BAND, OR YOU NEVER HAD WITH THEM, PER SE, UP UNTIL YOU PERFORMED LIVE THE FIRST TIME?

G-It was basically a collage. Based on everybodys ability to intuit.

T-I WOULD ASSUME JUST FROM LISTENING TO IT THAT IT WAS BAND -BASED BECAUSE IT SEEMS TO PLAY OFF THE INSTRUMENTS SO WELL.

G-Uncanny, isnt it?

T-YES, IT IS.

G-I listened to it Tuesday and its uncanny. You wouldnt plan to make it work like that. The reason it was built that way was thru circumstance, not an intellectual plan. It was just the way it happened. It was recorded in the spare bedroom at the house and one weekend, Michael could come up and did all the guitar parts in 2 days. And of course he did extra ones and Larry had laid down click tracks or just a table pat, you know, but that was it. Some viola was on a couple of them because William Breeze played first, but hed improvised his viola without knowing anything except what key it was going to be in. But he had no idea what chords were gonna be played or what the voice was or where the choruses would come in or anything. And its an incredibly surprising and baffling result.

T-I HAVE TO SAY, AND I HAVE JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING YOUVE DONE AS PTV AS WELL AS TG, THAT THIS NEW ALBUM IS ONE OF THE BEST THINGS YOUVE DONE IN QUITE A LONG TIME.

G-I agree. Im really, really thrilled with it. And I guess it shows that oldI think it was one of the last phrases on Force The Hand Of Chanceyou know, this psychic process really works. This album is confirmation of that. I guess it also shows that its the right band at the right time. So Im very excited because the PTV concept built itself again. Weve always said, I may be the musical director, but nobody controls Psychic TV. It builds itself and the music is the sum total of all the people who are involved at that time. They bring their skills and ideas to it. That shapes the music too. What makes it exciting for me is, I have to then re-shape my vocals to go with what theyve done. Im improvising. I have to find new voices or different ways to use my voice. Theres loads more harmonies than Ive done for years. The other thing we discovered is Larrys voice. He can sing incredibly high falsetto voices that sound like a women s voice. So I think Larry and I meeting is a critical point, but everybody on its just incredible. To watch them is just amamazing. Billy Pink came up and sat there. We just ran the tape past him once, not properly mixed, just off the board, and he kind of cocked his ear up and he went, Hmm. Okay. Lets do it. And he just played straight down. And nearly everything on it is one take. And the other thing we decided to do was not do lots of drop-ins and edits. Like all my vocal tracks be sung right through, rather than do a verse, then go back and do the other verse separately, and so on.

T-YEAH. IT DOES SEEM TO HAVE A FLOW TO IT, A REALLY FREE KIND OF LITTLE GROOVE.

G-Yeah. The whole thing Im just incredibly satisfied with. I think its a classic Psychic TV album and within all of it, theres all the bits of everything thats gone before its still there, sound collages, odd noises, samples, ironic jokes, black humor, the unexpected poppy bit, but theres a twist to it, you know. Im really pleased with it. I think its like I was saying earlier with painting. I think weve condensed down what I personally at the moment feel are some of the most remarkable and unique things about PTV and theyre all in there, and its listenable in many ways. You can put it on as entertainment and you can listen to it more deeply and realize a lot of those lyrics are very complex. Some of them are very strange. Theres stuff to work with if you want to sit back and think about it more.

T-THERE HAS BEEN TO PRETTY MUCH EVERYTHING YOUVE DONE BEFORE, I THINK.

G-Even the lyrics on this one. Do you know its taken longer than any other (PTV) album to record? It actually took a year because where we live out in the countrywe just had one yesterdaypower cuts. The heaviest rainfall in Northern California and we started in the Autumn of 94 and Larry moved up to the house and lived here and built the studio in the spare room and then we had the biggest floods theyve ever had in the area (laughs) and so we had like weeks at a time when there was no electricity or anything. Or wed start recordings and everything would go off because there was another power cut.

T-IT SOUNDS LIKE EVERYBODY IN CALIFORNIA HAS HAD A LOT OF PROBLEMS LATELY, BETWEEN YOU, PUPPY, AND LOVE & ROCKETS, THESE LAST FEW YEARS.

G-I know. it was a very strange year last year. Natural and other disasters. Then of course, I had my accident and that slowed it down cuz we were writing the vocals. So most of the vocals were done immediately after Id got out of hospital. I was standing with a crutch, with my arm in this great big cast (laughing) in the spare bedroom, singing these vocals facing the wall (more laughter). And Then Id go and lie in bed again and take more painkillers. And the next morning Id get up and in that window of opportunity while I was vaguely lucid Id do another vocal. But interestingly, they came out really well.

T-YEAH. IT WORKS.

G-It works, yeah. Its always going to be only a little bit short of miraculous the way it assembled itself. But that suggests that its a good album. It made itself. It assembled itself and it tells a story and theres real blood, sweat, tears, everything in there, you know? Its a miracle it got done.

T-DO YOU CONSIDER TRIP RESET TO BE A BIT MORE IMPORTANT THAN SOME OF THE OTHER THINGS YOUVE DONE LATELY?

G-Oh. I consider it to be the first real Psychic TV album since Towards Thee Infinite Beat. And I think basically in terms of Psychic TV, it goes: Force The Hand Of Chance, Dreams Less Sweet, Allegory and Self, Trip Reset. I think those are the 4 real PTV albums, in terms of being fully formed and fully considered. And fully finished and very special in a way that you cant explain it, if you know, by logic. And then, some of the confusion thats arisen, we hope will be removed because now, all the ambient and sampling and experimental ones will go under the name Splinter Test. In that way hopefully it wont be so confusing for people or shops. As you probably realize, were very prolific.

T-YEAH. YOUVE PUT OUT HOW MANY CDS OR HOW MANY ALBUMS IN THE LAST YEAR OR SO?

G-Oh god, I think it must be something like 20!

T-I MEAN JUST ON DOSSIER ALONE IT SEEMS LIKE THERES A COUPLE DISCS EVERY MONTH OR SO.

G-I know. And then theres stuff with Download, Pigface...

T-SPEAKING OF

G-(laughing)

T-HOW DID YOU GET INVOLVED WITH PIGFACE?

G-Martin Atkins rang me up. Well, actually, first Martin Atkins rang a mutual friend and said, Do you think Genesis would be interested in being in Pigface? She said, this was a lady called Maureen Baker who does all the work visas basically, for just about everyone who comes over from England. Shes incredible. And Maureen said, I dont think so, (laughs), I dont think hes interested in anything right now except surviving and being safe. She was the one who helped me get work visas to be safe in America. She said, But Ill ask him. So she phoned me up and said theres this guy Martin Atkins, has this band Pigface, this kind of industrial supergroup. And she explained it and I said, Eeeyew! That sounds horrible!

T-IT WOULD SEEM THAT WAY AT FIRST BECAUSE THEYRE MORE OF A ROCK TYPE OF BAND. AT THAT POINT I WOULDNT SEE YOU DOING IT.

G-Yeah. Then I did this thingits a built-in reflex. I went, you know what, its so much something that I would never do, that I should do it. Because it would be interesting to see what happens. Its a new experience, its never what I would do, therefore I should try it. So I phoned up Martin and I said, I really dont know how this is going to work out, but Ill do a couple of things and see what happens. And I was, to be fair, I was feeling pretty confused about being, stateless and semi-homeless, and I was a bit shy, and the last thing Id really been thinking about was performing again. But I went down, and they were playing in San Francisco and that was the first time I played with them. And like I said, I walked in the door and everybody wasit was as if I was the long-lost member of the family. They were just not like any rock band, not normally like any people who were already successful stars in their own rights with music. They took care of me and they made sure I was comfortable and they were polite. I .mean its just completely different than how youd think it would be. And I just thought, this is nice!.

T-SO NOBODY HAD ANY KIND OF BIG ATTITUDE OR ANYTHING?

G-No, not at all, no. No one was worried about me stealing limelight from them or vice versa.

T-IM SURE A LOT OF THEM WERE PROBABLY FANS OF YOU FROM THE TG DAYS AND THE EARLY PTV STUFF.

G-Yeah, thats how it turned out. It went great. They started to play and Id never heard them play and I took my big box of tapedecks and I was spinning in tape sounds, loops, and I took a Tibetan horn and I was playing duets with Hope Nicholls playing saxophone and stuff. It was just as if Id been in the band the whole time and because I improvise so much anyway on stage, it wasnt complex for me. You know, thats what I do in my own band. They had a riff going and I make up words. So I discovered it was very similar in construct.

T-ONCE I HEARD TRUTH WILL OUT (PIGFACES LIVE RECORDING THAT GENESIS DEBUTED ON), IT SEEMED LIKE YOU REALLY DID FIT IN.

G-Yeah.

T-I THOUGHT ABOUT IT SOME MORE AND IT DID SEEM LIKE PIGFACE IS SORT OF THE SAME CONCEPT AS PTV HAS BEEN.

G-It is, it is. So Im more than proud to be considered a full-time, as far as anyone is, a full-time member of Pigface.

T-SO YOU PLAN ON DOING A LOT MORE WITH THEM IN THE FUTURE, RIGHT?

G-Always, yeah. Its one of my favorite bands. And through that I met Ogre. We just sat down on the bus and chatted and I just thought, What a fantastic guy!. And its going to sound corny and prim, but I think that Ogre and Martin and I, we really love each other in very special ways. Yknow, soul brothers in a really good way. We really like what each other does and we take care of each other, (like) if one persons depressed, the other 2 will immediately see it and look after you, you know? There was a particularly bad day when I was very depressed about something and I ended up just sitting on the floor really depressed and kinda thinking everything was worthless and they both came and put their arms around me and just held me in their arms. Which is not how you would imagine people in Pigface being. Thats what Pigface is actually like. And thats actually what the people in Pigface are like. Its interesting. Theyre all very sensitive and thoughtful and creative and vulnerable and theyve chosen to expose that to a degree thats very modern, in public. And I think thats where the power from all this music is coming from. People are exposing their inner self. And risking their sanity and their emotions every time they go on stage, because its not just a slick showbiz thing. Its closer to primal therapy, and you walk on and you say, This is me today, and me today is fucked up, or me today is in a silly mood, or me today is screaming, or me today is poetic and mellow. And PTVs like that and Pigface is like that. You dont know. The same songs can be treated totally different, according to the emotions and the needs of the audience and the performers. Thats very different. And I think that whats gonna happen now with modern music is that Pigface, Psychic TV, Ogres new project WELT, basically the band with the same lineupis actually obsolete in terms of creative culture. Theres no need. Theres no need for it. Pigface is always Pigface, no matter whos in it. Theres a Pigface aesthetic that all the people who come to it amplify. I dont make it PTV. Ogre doesnt make it Skinny Puppy, En Esch doesnt make it KMFDM, we make it Pigface. And when they work with me in Psychic TV, when Martins drumming and Ogres singing with me in PTV, its not Skinny Puppy or Pigface, its Psychic TV. Its recognizable as so. So theres something contained, a seed, in the idea of Psychic TV that the people who work with it project and its always got a Psychic TV-ness or it will be with Ogre now and WELT-ness. I think the real reason that a band like Skinny Puppy had to disintegrate, was because the people in it were all, cEvin, and Ogre, and Dwayne, bless him, were aware that the idea of the band that exists forever with the same members is obsolete. Its not enough.

T-THEY ALL JUST WERENT SATISFIED WITH THE WAY IT WAS WORKING FOR THEM.

G-Its just not big enough. The information age is just so fast and so huge and the possibilities are just so infinite that collaboration has to be the next way of going, and the bands that are going to be really interesting are gonna be the ones that are just a collective name, and even if they seem to have the same lineup. Pigface could have exactly the same people in it as Psychic TV, play on the same night on the same bill

T-AND BE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

G-And it would be completely different.

T-I THINK A LOT OF IT HAS TO DO WITH THE INDIVIDUALS INVOLVED. I MEAN, EVERYONE SEEMS TO BE QUITE INTELLIGENT AND VERY OPEN TO DIFFERENT ATTITUDES AND IDEAS AND I THINK EVERYONE CAN KEEP A CERTAIN SPIRIT, A CERTAIN SENTIMENT, THAT THEY FEEL IS PR0PER WITH EACH PROJECT OR BAND.

G-Exactly, and I think that s incredibly significant.

T-THEYRE NOT GOING TO GO AND INJECT THEIR OWN EGO, THEIR OWN ROCKSTAR ATTITUDES INTO THE OTHER PERSONS SIDE.

G-Theyre projecting Pigface or Psychic TV-ness or whatever. Now thats more Download-ness, you know? And if I go, which I probably will, and do something with Download, I will be trying to amplify with my skills what I see Download as being, right?

T-EXACTLY.

G-I wont be saying, Im Genesis with Download. Ill be saying, Im Genesis, trying to make Download more powerful as Download.

T-RIGHT.

G-Now this, it really is a significant, very important change. Because it means that the last 20 years of how bands have been promoted, exploited, perceived, hyped, and publicized, is becoming redundant, and its truly finally being negated by the artists and musicians themselves. Of course, record companies dont know what the hell to do with that. That puzzles them. They see Pigface selling out, doing these gigs that last 3 1/2 hours. Really the only parallel I could immediately suggest is George Clinton with Funkadelic, who Ive seen several times and met and talked to and its the same thing. Theres George Clinton and Funkadelic and theres a Funkadelic-ness and sometimes there s 20 of them on stage and sometimes theres 4 and people get up out of the audience and join in and its always Funkadelic. George Clinton is somehow unifying all their skills and hes the funnel. Hes the transmission and reception instrument of the Funkadelic-ness, without whom it would be different, but its not just George Clinton, either. Its all these skills coming through him and triggered by him. I think he is also a very modern performer in that way. And any band thats just trying to be the same 4 people and they all play in every son;. I mean, can you imagine? The singer always sings, the bass player always plays bass, the drummer always drums, the keyboard player always plays keyboards, and the guitarist always does the same solo, and every single song on the album, they all play those things, and they all have to play. And if theres a publicity photo, theyre all in it, and in the video. Theyre all in the video. Like, what the fuck? Thats pathetic. I look forward to the day when nobody in any band is in any video. There should never need to be a person in a band in the video.

T-I KIND OF SEE IT AS, ANY ALBUM THAT HAS THE BANDS PHOTOGRAPH ON THE COVER IS A HUGE MISTAKE, TOO.

G-Yeah.

T-I CAN PRETTY MUCH DISCOUNT THAT AS A BAND THAT I WOULDNT WANT TO HEAR.

G-We dont have a photograph of Psychic TV. Its like, even in the last year, even when we did some gigs, we forgot. It just didnt occur to us that we need a photograph of all of us together for anything. Yknow, and then Cleopatra says, So we need a publicity photo of the band, and I said, We havent got one! We dont really bother with photographs, you know. And the only photographs there were was some somebody took in New York just for fun, of me. I said, Thats all weve got. But its not important because we also have this weirdits almost like a superstition Ive noticed something with Psychic TV. I dont know, but whenever weve had a photograph taken of all the band, it changes. As soon as weve got the publicity photo of the band, the lineup changes. Theyre never current, theyre always out of date.

T-THATS TELLING YOU SOMETHING.

G-Yes. So I mean now we dont even bother taking them. Its almost like, well, if we take a photo we wont work together anymore. We better not do it, yknow. (Talk then moves to modern technology, computer science, and its ramifications as my tape runs out...)

T-SO DO YOU SEE THAT BEING MORE POSITIVE OR NEGATIVE? CERTAINLY THERES A LOT OF SPEED AND QUICKNESS INVOLVED IN THE TRANSMISSION OF DATA AND MATERIAL, BUT YOU DONT HAVE THAT FACE TO FACE CONTACT OR INTERACTION.

G-This is true. And its a conundrum that I havent completely come to terms with. Its one of the reasons Im very interested in returning to analog.

T-I WAS GOING TO MENTION THAT. I SEE A HUGE BACKLASH IN THE FUTURE AGAINST ALL THIS TECHNOLOGY WITH THE INTERNET AND THE EXTREME TECHNOLOGY.

G-Well, one of my simple ways of being concerned or explaining my concern is, I dont believe in an either/or universe. You know, I dont believe its black and white, good and bad, either or, and I think that most physics, most philosophy, and metaphysics have suggested that thats ridiculousthats not how it is. And yet computers are based on a binary system. And that itself makes me very suspicious because thats an either/or universe. The way that its runits run on a one and zero. That s not good! That theres something so rigid about that, no matter how fantastic it might appear on the surface, that it concerns me. That were going to be sucked into an either/or universe again, and be vulnerable to the either/or mentality on some very deep psychic neurological levels. And our brains are going to be negatively affected by that. The other thing thats worrying me is, were not taking time to think. People get their e-mail and they try to write straight back. In fact, they type in-between the lines of someone elses e-mail. Once it took 6 months. You write the letter, you post it, it would arrive in India 3 months later. Somebody would sit down and read it 2 or 3 times and maybe a week later theyd write an answer by hand, having thought about it a lot and considering their words carefully, maybe redraft it, then post it. 3 months later youd get your reply to what you wrote 6 months ago. Now it takes 30 seconds. There is no question that something incredibly drastic is going to happen to both the privacy of our brains and our ability to be attentive to the implications of information were receiving. If its gone from 6 months to 30 seconds, something radical is happening and its not necessarily healthy. I certainly dont believe anyone should consider cyberspace, the Internet, or computers benign. There is no innate benign quality to them. And there could very well be some very malignant qualities in terms of the effects on the neurology of people which we really havent begun to consider. The FDA certainly havent checked it out. If you or I said, We want to put a pill in every house of the globe, that makes people respond to each other quicker, wed have to have all these lab checks, this, that , and the other checks. Someone would tax it, the big pharmaceutical companies would take it over, but, if we just stick something with a TV screen thats electrical that goes down the phone line in every home, no one gives a shit. Its not checked. The physiological, neurological, sociological, and pathological effects are not checked. Everyones seen that television has forever changed the world. And not necessarily all of that was benign. Whilst you cant necessarily stop things changing, I think there should always be a big discussion about the implicationsa much more open, public, and serious philosophical biochemical discussion.

T-YEAH. EVERYONE SEEMS JUST TO HAVE JUMPED RIGHT INTO IT WITHOUT CONSIDERING THE LONG-TERM EFFECTS OR WHERE IT WILL TAKE US.

G-Absolutely. That to me is irresponsible. If it was a new kind of vehicle with a new kind of engine that could possibly explode and kill you, people would be wary about using it the first time.

T-I THINK A LOT OF IT IS JUST THE CORPORATE SIDE OF AMERICA OR THE WORLD IN GENERAL. EVERYONE WANTS TO PUSH IT OUT AS SOON AS POSSIBLE AS THIS WONDERFUL NEW INFORMATION AGE AND IF THEY GIVE EVERYONE THE TIME TO CONSIDER IT, THEN PERHAPS THEY WOULDNT MAKE AS MUCH OF A PROFIT OUT OF IT OR ENJOY THAT SUMMER HOME.

G-Yeah. So I am truly concerned. One of my new writing projects is going to be within the Process site that 0gre and everyone have set up, is a discussion at the very least or to try and set up a discussion of what might be other ways of speculating on the effects of this. What could be the worst case scenario? What is the most insane possible implication? What is the most positive? And set up a list of all these things so that people at least stop for a moment and take a breath before they jump off that cliff into that abyss which is really, every time you plug into the Internet, youre plugging into the brains, the neuroses, the psychoses, the secret agendas, and the triviality and mundanity of everyone else whos plugged in. And you have no protective system. Youre not wearing a suit that protects you from the stupidity. Youre not wearing anything that protects you from the inherent secret violence that might be in there. Youre not having your brain protected from long term effects of accelerated and reduced intelligence of thought. People just have not really raised the issue, theyve just embraced it as being fabulous, and thats it. To take it to the new album, thats one of the reasons we went back to analog, thinking on terms of magick and alchemy and the larger picture of the history of music and its reasons for being which are the celebration of the tribe and its thoughts and stories. Tape and spring reverb is real metal that heats up and moves and the molecules jangle and the air moves, and that s alchemy. Youre working with metals, frequencies, and changing frequencies and heat, and the same with tape, you know. The magnetic oxide is moving and changing and you can distort it and you can overload and you can make things happen thatre impossible with a binary system. So its all real tape echo, real tape delay, real spring reverbs, and ribbon microphones. I have to say Ive forgotten how incredible it is.

T-IT CERTAINLY HAS A SPIRIT THAT MORE DIGITAL MUSICS LACK, BY FAR.

G-Yeah. Its scary.

T-ITS COOL TO SEE THAT cEVIN KEYS DOING THE SAME THING, AND YOU, GOING INTO THIS ANCIENT ANALOG (REALM)

G-Because its alchemy. You are actually practicing contemporary alchemy. Adding ones and zeros is not alchemy to me. In fact, its not even really quantum mathematics. Its either/or. My whole life was dedicated to the end of either/or.

T-THE GREY.

G-The grey. Exactly. And somebody once said, I dont know if you know much about the Process, (but) one of the things was the unity of Christ and Satan. Until these two are unified, which is seen as symbols of the personality for example. When you no longer think of yourself as being good and/or bad.

T-WHEN YOU ACCEPT BOTH.

G-When youre finally an integrated person who just knows yourself inside out. Until that happens, you cannot move forward and evolve. And then of course, one of the ways they will describe society and the forces that suppress our individuality was grey, the forces of grey, the grey forces, the grey people. And when we were looking at computers as a similar kind of metaphor, Ogre was saying, Wheres the grey forces? , and I said, Well, look at the plastic on the fucking computers and fax machine...its grey!. And he went, Oh god, yeah. We were sort of going through all these different ways to apply those metaphors to cyberspace and so on. Why is it all grey? Why the hell is all the plastic grey? So that became the grey forces. And of course, interestingly enough, and it was just intuitive, the first time I ever got given a computer, the very first thing I did was get lots of bits of old fur and glue it all over it so it was made of fur. And put little rocks and feathers and bones on it so it was more organic. I would always talk to it before I switched it on, because I was aware it was a creature, that it wasnt a passive thing. And I think theres a lot that people havent really considered yet and I think that theyre making themselves terrifyingly vulnerable at the moment. And so weve certainly been championing the reassessment and reusing of analog and youre right, cEvin Key completely got it, and a lot of people weve talked to..

T-EVEN A LOT OF THE MODERN TECHNO ARTISTS LIKE APHEX TWIN, SO ON, THEYRE TOTALLY PRO-ANALOG.

G-Certainly.

T-ALL THESE BRILLIANT ARTISTS. ITS A COOL AND REFRESHING REBIRTH OF SORTS.

G-Please, please, god, never give me an A-DAT. (laughs). I cant stand those things. But you know what nearly happened with this, I dont know if youve got the promo CD of Trip Reset.

T-YEAH. A LITTLE CARD SLEEVE.

G-So this is an interesting thing. I actually, when it comes out in the shops, its going to sound a lot better, and Ill explain why. When it was mastered, youll have noticed its really split stereo, like they used to do in the 60s with the Beatles and everything. And its all analog. Now it was all mastered and went through the first phase of mastering, then it went off to the factory and somebody at the factory put it through a generic digital EQ, and it messed it all up. While it still sounds okay, a lot of the high frequencies jump right out and some of the things have disappeared. Youd be amazed how much more youll hear when you hear the proper version. And that just confirms what we thought. They tried to digitize it and they took away about 20% of what was there. That was a revelation. We kind of put it on at home and we went, What is this? (laughing) And we realized that they tried to make it sound digital. It was too late to do anything about it, but youll be glad to know that it sounds infinitely better when its full analog.

T-YOUVE GOT MORE DUE OUT SOON, TOO, LIKE A REMIX EP RIGHT?

G-Theres a whole remix CD called Cold Blue Torch, and Raven from Prong, and cEvin Key..

T-MARTIN (ATKINS).

G-Martin, yeah. Spahn Ranch, and quite a lot of people who ve all done remixes of tracks. And thats really interesting. Again, for me, I love that because I had nothing to do with it. Theres a whole CD of our music, and I didnt even have to be there.

T-AND YOU GET DIFFERENT PEOPLES IMPRESSIONS OF WHAT YOURE DOING.

G-But its also demonstrating and prosthetizing what I really believe, which is, the band is dead, long live the project.

T-IN A SENSE, REMIXES ARE A COLLABORATION NOW, MORE AND MORE THESE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS WITH THESE REMIX ALBUMS BECOMING SO PROMINENT. PEOPLE ARE EXCHANGING THEIR IDEAS BACK AND FORTH,

G-Its almost a bit like what they talk about with Motown and these other labels like Chess, you know. Theres a pool of musicians, and they all play on each others records. Marvin Gayes still Marvin Gaye, but the same drummer was on the Supremes. Im very very adamant that the band is dead, long live the project. And I think Pigface is a prophetic band, and I think that Psychic TV has been a prohetic band, and I think that were going to see more and more of that. Collaboration is the only way for people to maintain stimulation and forward motion.

T-YEAH. TO KEEP EVERYTHING FRESH YOU NEED THAT OUTSIDE INPUT.

G-See, I know what I think. I know what noises I like and I know how to make noises in the order I prefer them. So what am I going to learn from just doing records on my own forever? Nothing. I dont do this to prove that Im the same every time. I do this because I want to learn and I want to be surprised and I want to be refreshed and I want to sit back and go, Wow! Thats uncanny! end Ha, I would never have done that a year ago, but you know what? Sounds great

T-ONE THING THAT YOUVE DONE LATELY THAT IVE BEEN QUITE FOND OF IS THE PENAL COLONY REMIXES.

G-I was really pleased with those.

T-YOURS STOOD OUT ON THE ALBUM COMPLETELY.

G-That was Larry too, of course. Those were done at the house here, as well, just on a 16-track. Lets put it this way, when we finished them, I thought, I wish these were backing tracks for our songs. I liked them that much. Id be happy to work with that music for myself.

T-I WAS EXCITED TO HEAR YOUR NEW MATERIAL AFTER HEARING THOSE, AS FAR AS YOUR DIRECTION NOW.

G-Of course, thats all analog. Have you heard the Pigface one we did?

T-YEAH. I HAVE.

G-That one worked out.

T-EVEN COOLER, WHEN I SAW THEM LIVE, THAT WAS THE OPENING TRACK THAT THEY PLAYED.

G-Oh right. And then when I was with them, Ogre and I did it together. Yeah.

T-IT WORKED REALLY NICELY.

G-Its another one of those things that we discovered, thats nice, is when we did the first Pigface songs together in the studio. Ogre and I, when we played it back, neither of us could be sure who was singing which bits. Our voices, when we do certain types of voice, we can blend perfectly. And thats something we want to work with together. Were going to do something together.

T-ID SEEN IN AN INTERVIEW THAT YOU WANTED TO DO AN ALBUM OR SOMETHING TOGETHER.

G-Yeah. Still do. Its just that he had lots of problems with the Skinny Puppy situation. I got a 6 month hiatus of being crippled. I mean, I had a cast on my arm for 6 months! And so, it will happen, theres no question, because its a desire, and its a strong enough desire that it has to happen. Hopefully this year, thats the plan. Its always hard getting all these people who are busy and prolific and exotic all in one place at one time.

T-WELL, HIS WELT ALBUM IS FINISHED SO HE SHOULD BE OPEN TO SOMETHING ELSE NOW, AND SINCE THEY CANT RELEASE HIS ALBUM FOR SO LONG NOW.

G-Well, thats because of the Skinny Puppy album. Is that actually out now? T-No, Its due on February 27th on American, I believe. G-Okay. I must get one from him, see what happens.

T-IT IS QUITE AMAZING. I THINK cEVIN DID A NICE JOB TO FINISH IT UP.

G-Yeah. I heard rough mixes and it sounded really good then.

T-ITS DEFINITELY LIKE SKINNY PUPPY. ITS NOT ANYTHING BUT. IT HAS ALL OF THEIR INPUT EQUALLY, I BELIEVE.

G-So its a good final album?

T-YEAH. ID DEFINITELY SAY SO. ITS VERY VERY STRONG.

G-Good. Good good good.

T-IM SURE DWAYNE WOULD BE PLEASED WITH IT.

G-Cuz they went through a lot of shit to get that. (laughs) It seems like we all got squeezed like oranges that year! I think its a metamorphosis period, but you know what? Isnt it great? I mean, here we all are and were all free agents, Martin & Ogre & cEvin, me, and everybody, floating around. I have to say Pigface, you have to hand it to Martin, Martin Atkins. If it wasnt for him and Pigface, all these other things would never have occurred. Its a fantastic catalyst, and (hes) a fantastic guy.

T-AND NOT JUST FOR YOU IN THE BANDS, BUT EVEN FOR US, THE INVISIBLE FIELD REPS. I MEAN, IVE BEEN TALKING TO PEOPLE LIKE HOPE NICHOLLS (OF SUGARSMACK)

G-Well, Martins incredible, and yeah, a fantastic guy. Oh, Hopes wonderful. And of course there was Mary Byker, whos a hilarious Englishman. Typical Englishman, loud, obnoxious, and drunk but wonderful. Hes gonna do something with me as well.

T-GREAT. AS PTV OR AS SOMETHING DIFFERENT?

G-Well, the plan is to do an anthology. A compilation CD of cover versions of my songs.

T-I HEARD cEVIN DID A SONG.

G-Yeah, cEvin did one already, which is really good. And Mary Bykers gonna do one, and Ogres gonna do one.

T-YOU KNOW, THERES A TG COVERS ALBUM THAT JUST CAME OUT ON RRRECORDS? A LOT OF NOISE BANDS. PAUL LEMOS IS ON IT I KNOW.

G-Doing TG covers? Really? You mean its actually out? Wow. You see, I dont know whats going on half the time. How amazing. Id love to find one for my archives. Have you got a copy of The Fractured Garden yet?

T-YES. I GOT IT ACTUALLY A COUPLE OF DAYS AGO FROM INVISIBLE.

G-Good. Im pleased with that one too.

T-YES, I WAS IMPRESSED WITH IT.

G-Were on a roll. (in a clownishly high-pitched voice) Were on a roll doing good stuff!

T-SO YOURE DOING A LOT MORE STUFF FOR INVISIBLE TOO?

G-What were going to try and do is just centralize all back catalog between Cleopatra and Invisible, yeah.

T-ALL THE BACK CATALOG?

G-As much as we can. As much as we can retain control of. The stuff that was on Wax Trax comes back to me next year, then itll go to Invisible.

T-WONDERFUL.

G-Just so itll be easy for people to find at cheaper prices.

T-BUT YOU WONT DO ALL THE LIVE ALBUMS AND ALL THAT, WILL YOU? THATS AN AWFUL LOT TO ASK.

G-Id like everything to just be available if people want it. I think it would be nice, y know? On the other hand, I look across the room here and Ive got 2 shelves of CDs that are my music now.

T-WELL, YOURE DOING A LOT MORE TG STUFF NOW, TOO, RIGHT? LIKE LONG LOST RECORDINGS FOR DOSSIER?

G-Yeah. Thats right.

T-WHAT DO CHRIS & COSEY AND SLEAZY THINK ABOUT THOSE, OR DO THEY EVEN KNOW ABOUT IT?

G-Oh, they know about it. Theyre always very small editions. It doesnt really make a lot of difference. I think Chris & Cosey brought one out recently, live at somewhere or other. We have a very open, loose relationship. Which is, I dont talk to them and they dont talk to me! (laughs)

T-YOU KNOW THEYRE DOING STUFF WITH SLEAZY AGAIN?

G-Yeah, so I heard. So I heard, yeah.

T-THEY HAD A REMIX ALBUM, CHRIS & COSEY THAT IS, AND THEY HAD COIL DO A MIX FOR THEM.

G-Monte did one, didnt he? Monte Cazazza.

T-PROBABLY DID, YEAH.

G-Im still seeing Monte regularly.

T-HES OUT IN SAN FRANCISCO, I GUESS?

G-Yeah. He came up for dinner the other week. And, I gave him copies of the Electric Newspapers, and hes been working using those for his film soundtracks hes working on. Hes great. Hes classic. So hes still busy. Very underground as usual. I know hes working on 2 or 3 things and he also works with Lustmord and all those people. I know hes recording a new CD of his own stuff and a film soundtrack and hes been working a lot with Brian Lustmord whos now over here working with Graeme Revell, who does loads of film soundtracks, doesnt he? You noticed?

T-YEAH. IVE SORT OF BEEN FOLLOWING HIS HOLLYWOOD CAREER A LITTLE.

G-Its incredible how many film soundtracks hes done. Apparently, Monte was saying, when he gets commissioned, he does 2 or 3 hours of music, and he gives it to the film company and they take what they want. And the rest is just put on the shelf but hes not allowed to release it. And Monte said some of the stuff that s not used is so great, and its just lost. He has no legal rights to it, which is really sad. But I severed connections with Graeme a long time ago.

T-I HEARD HE CONTACTED cEVIN THOUGH ABOUT DOING SOME SCORES TOGETHER.

G-That would be good for cEvin, wouldnt it?

T-YEAH. HES BEEN WANTING TO FOR SO LONG. TO CHANGE THE SUBJECT, WHAT ABOUT TOURS, ARE YOU GOING TO TOUR?

G-Were hoping May, with the new lineup including Martin of course. And special guests which would probably include Mr. Oggie Woggie(Ogre), and all the rest of them. The extended family.

T-THAT WOULDNT BE A JOINT TOUR WITH WELT?

G-We dont know yet.

T-I KNOW cEVIN WANTS TO TOUR DOWNLOAD WITH THE PINK DOTS MAYBE AND TEAR GARDEN.

G-Really?

T-WITH YOU GUYS THAT WOULD MAKE FOR AN AMAZING..

G-I dont know how viable itd be, but I know that the agency that did Pigface and Nine Inch Nails are interested in helping set it up, though, so well have to see what everyones up to and what their commitments are as to who can do what, but it should be fun. It would be nice if we could all just doall of uswouldnt that be great?

T-THAT WOULD BE AMAZING.

G-Someone should try to set that up one day, where we all go out together.

T-I MEAN, IT WOULD BE FUN FOR YOU GUYS AS WELL.

G-(Excitedly) Yeah. Like a huge gypsy caravan.

T-YOU WOULDNT SEE THE BUSINESS SIDE QUITE AS MUCH AS YOU HAVE IN THE PAST. IT MIGHT BE JUST A BIG FAMILY.

G-That would be fun, Id like that. Several busses with all of us in, and everyone could tag along, like a weird post-apocalyptic Grateful Dead, an angst-ridden Grateful Dead. Its time for something- a little bit more modern (laughing). That would be great. I could deal with that, couldnt you?

T-CERTAINLY. ITD BE ALL THE BEST IN ONE PLACE.

G-Of course wed get tired, because wed all be in each others bands.

T-YEAH. YOUD BE PLAYING 6 HOURS A NIGHT.

G-Itd be just like Funkadelic. Maybe we can get George to come.

T-THERES AN IDEA.

G-Ive always wanted to do a joint tour with Funkadelic. Just imagine if there was Funkadelic and they did like their 3 to 4 hour show. Yeah. You could do it so the groups just kind of blended and melded into each other, and do sort of a 4 to 5 hour thing.

T-IMAGINE THE AUDIENCE CROSS-POLLINIZATION THAT YOUD GET TOO.

G-Wow. That would be great. It would just be a great night out. (laughing mischievously) Id like to see that. If you sit down, you go, god, Id like to see that!, then its a good idea, you know? I should write to George. You know it might be feasible. Ive got George Clintons address. I think we should start planning, even if its not this year, next year. Fuck Lollapalooza.

T-WHO NEEDS IT?

G-Lets do something thats really out there, really out-sane.

T-GET MARTIN IN ON THE DEAL AND HAVE HIM CALL EVERYONE THAT HE KNOWS TO DROP IN HERE, THERE, AND EVERYWHERE.

G-Everyone. WELT, Download, Pigface, Psychic TV

T-I DONT KNOW ABOUT WELT AND DOWNLOAD TOGETHER.

G-We could manage it.

T-THATD BE GREAT, BUT ....

G-I shall mediate.

We end as Gens young daughter Genesse enters. Thus, the interviewee is anxious to have his coffee and spend some family time. Thanx to Genesis for taking 1 1/2 hours to talk to me.